March 19, 2010 at 9:58 pm #5446AnonymousInactive
I am coming across a few people in the area who have started to use oil based paint. In the last month, I have had 3 customers come back to me with our new lines coming up. As it turns out, the new paint is sticking to the sealer, but the sealer is not sticking to the oil based lines.
Does anybody know a sure fire way of testing old lines to see if they are oil based or not? I am assuming if I know it is oil based I can either place an oil spot primer or in or grind off the old lines. I would love to find out there is something to spray on them that would either turn a color or only disolve one type of paint. Thanks in advance.March 21, 2010 at 4:52 am #5988
I’m a striper. I’ve never heard of this. Are you a Sealer or Striper?
If I were a Sealer…I’d think…”No…it’s not my Seal…and it’s not the old line.”
By the time you seal over the old line…they’re scuffed, etc…not to mention the pavement is already “rough” enough to allow Seal to adhere…and…the old lines are certainly not “oily” to the extent that Seal…all of a sudden…doesn’t stick.
Plus…we’d have this problem everywhere. I’m on you’re side. It’s not you.
That said…I just went to a Sherwin Williams / Graco Paint Show Exhibit. There was a certain kind of “Fast Dry”…or “Acrylic Acetone…?”…that will bleed off too quickly…?…or…not stick as well because the “skinning” occurs so fast…that the paint cannot allow the remaining ingredients to bleed through the skin…and therefore not allow a bond…something like that…etc. I can’t help beyond that. But…I really, really doubt that it’s…all of a sudden…your Seal just doesn’t stick.
I hope I helped somehow.
DanMarch 22, 2010 at 5:56 pm #5996AnonymousInactive
We are a full service company that does concrete, asphalt paving, patching sealcoating and striping. I have found out from the Sealmaster distributor here in Raleigh that there are 2 guys in the area who use oil based paint. One only does striping and the other seals and stripes. We have been around for 42 years and have had this happen in the past, maybe once every 10 years and now it has happened 3 times in 1 month.
I understand that it most likely isn’t our material, however if the lines peel up then I feel responsible for not catching it. If I put in my quotes that I am going to grind the lines and charge the customers for it, are they going to believe me and be willing to pay the extra money? Of course if they go with a competitor and the lines come up, I doubt they will go as far as we will and redo the entire lot.March 22, 2010 at 7:20 pm #5997
In the 2nd paragraph…I doubt it…= Phil, (may I call you Phil), as a Customer, I would see a price difference of…what?…40 cents per foot x 18′ x 60 cars…? x 200 cars? Probably more like $1.00 per foot…? (We…you and I) cannot forget the cleanup…or cost of the blades. I know…practically…we would grind…then blow off the parking lot to prepare for Seal. So…the labor wouldn’t be “another” charge. But…your bid would prompt two things…
1) As a Customer…I would think…what? I’ve never heard of that.
2) I’ll get another bid…(if I didn’t already have one…or two…that were very close in price…then I’d see yours.)
Neither scenario is cool.
I’m still TOTALLY in your camp. I stripe everywhere in Ohio…in cold weather = Spring = NOW…!…and later October, evenings…through the first week of December…WITH OIL…!
Next…I need to clarify something…
Scenario (1) … If I…as a Striper…stripe the Shopping Center with Oil based paint…then (1) year goes by…and then you Seal Coat the place…you should be fine…LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE…ALL OVER THE CITY…! THEN…if I as a Striper come in and “Re-stripe To Existing Layout and Pattern Over Seal”…Phil…I would definitely…definitely…use LATEX paint. And WE…you and I…would be fine. Bill it. Pay me in (30) days. Let’s look for more.
Scenario (2) If I…as a Striper…stripe the Shopping Center with Oil based paint…then (1) year goes by…and then you Seal Coat the place…you should be fine…LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE…ALL OVER THE CITY…! THEN…if I as a Striper come in and “Re-stripe To Existing Layout and Pattern Over Seal”…THEN…use Acetone…OR…Oil based paint…again…over fresh seal…I would definitely…definitely…expect a problem. MINE…not yours…to solve.
So…here’s my question…which scenario is it?
Here’s my first idea for a fix. I would Restripe a few…”far out” lines with a different paint. Not…lines up close to the front doors. I’m expecting this will cover and suffice. But…I don’t know all the molecular crap with paint. I do know…that when I painted…solid paint…over a concrete floor that the “paint” was actually a grey stain. It reacted with the old stripes…in some places. It blistered. I waited. I scraped a few places. I re painted with the grey stain…again…then it was fine. Here’s my point…sometimes…some paints react with the “stuff” under them…whether it’s your seal or the old stripe. I DO NOT think it’s a reaction though between YOUR seal and the OLD, existing paint stripe. Phil…I’m thinking it was the NEWLY applied paint…to your fresh seal. I’m sorry to say this…but…I THINK…your striper may have sprayed Acetone. Acetone will eat. Check me. Check me. Check me. AND…I’m also on the side of your striper. Go back. Stripe with Latex over some remote lines. Wait (3) days…no reaction?…Is the final product ok with the owner?…Re-stripe the entire thing. Work out the money with the striper…privately…later. BUT…attack this thing together…as a team…with the Owner.
Next…if it’s gooey. Try Seal Coating over a few remote lines as a test. Then Re-stripe those lines only…again…with Latex. Friend…we all make mistakes. I don’t care. I will take it on the jaw…if it’s my fault. I will even take it on the jaw…if it’s not… to cover for someone. But we’re not done.
A) Tell me which scenario it is.
B) Try Test # 1.
If it works…we’re done. If not…
C) Try Test # 2. Bill the job.
Behind the scenes…work it out with the Striper. And…stick up for him…or her.
Keep me posted.
Last…as a note…Alkyd based paints are still out there. They are just different formulas…than what they used to be. You don’t have to go to Acetone. Sherwin Williams probably still sells an Alkyd. Seal Master may. RAE Products sells it. Glidden sells it. Check me. I’m not saying I’m right in my assumptions = I think Acetone was used over fresh Seal. I am saying…as a Striper…I forgot…once…and sprayed Alkyd over fresh Seal. When I realized…20 lines later…I looked back. Nothing wild happened. The job was still fine. But I did see a small reaction. The new White stripe…of mine…turned a slight “parchment” color at the edges. That’s it. BUT…I never “forgot” since. BUT…when I didn’t have my H/C stencil…on a different job…I came back later. And…to save time…I only brought my H/C stencil and a Blue Spray Can = Aerosol Striping Paint. I didn’t know it was “Oil Based”. I sprayed the H/C. It got gooey. It ran. Fuzzy edges. Crap…! I learned. So…what I am saying…IF…IF…your striper used oil based paint…I don’t think it would be a scary mess. But…I do know Sherwin Williams offers great advice in their seminars. I just went to one, Thursday, Columbus OH. They point out…correctly…Acetone will eat..= CLEAN…! out your machine. So…before you put Acetone inside a Striping Machine…make sure it’s clean. Why…? Again…Acetone…is a stripper…(Goggle it)…it will eat small deposits of old paint…inside the striper…and then probably clog it. Phil…that’s why…I think…Acetone was used. If I’m wrong…I apologize…right now.
Again…keep in touch. Keep me posted.
And again…your Striper will help. Stick up for him or her. Please.
DanApril 1, 2010 at 4:05 am #6009
Welcome to the forum.
DanApril 1, 2010 at 5:12 am #6010AnonymousInactive
Can both of you guys give me an email. I wanted to post pictures, but they are too big in size and I can email them directly to you. Just to be sure you guys understand, our new lines that came up literally are 10 inches long and have clean sealer (No dirt attached which was my first thought) fully attached to them. The only thing remaining on the surface is the old line. Sealer gone and line gone which is why I think it is the old line reacting with our sealer. To me it would see that if it was our paint it would have come up cleand and left the sealer on top of the old line. We ended up grinding all the lines off, resealed the whole lot (1200 gallons) and restriped. So far so good.April 1, 2010 at 6:51 pm #6011
I’m impressed. I have to say that your customer is truly impressed and grateful.
I think your crew went the distance. Hats off to you. This customer will boast on you. You can always use him/her as a great reference.
Now…even if I saw the pics…I’m not too sure I could help beyond what I’ve offered.
I’d like to see the pics though. PM me…from PaveManPro.
Let me ask a couple things.
1) Did we ever deduce what type of paint it was? That may not matter if you’re using Latex and/or the “Did Not Adhere” problem is strictly between the Seal and old line.)
2) Was there any type of reaction between the paint and seal…? = dissolving, discoloration…? It sounds like you’re saying “no”.
3) Now…beyond that…I may be out. I’ve never heard of anything like this. I doubt I’d be too afraid of it happening again. (I know it happened 3 times in a month though.)
4) As much as I hate to now say this…I wouldn’t rule out some SealMaster flub. Let’s face it…the trouble is between the Seal and old line. So…how many jobs have you sealed using this “batch” of sealer? That said…SealMaster has been around and is well respected. They should have more insight and resources to pull from in helping figure this out. AND…if it’s a Seal problem…things happen. No one is perfect. Stick with them.
4) To their defense…they may refer to the old lines = let’s take a closer look at them. (Is that too late? Is there any debris left over?) I wonder if the last striper coated the line? That may sound like a weird question…but…this whole thing is weird. That said…Why are the lines only 10″ long?
5) I think I’m still comfortable saying it not the “oil based” paint. There are two types of Seal = Coal Tar and Asphalt. This cannot…is not…the first time either typel has been sprayed, brushed onto old oil based lines.
6) Last…I would walk away from the customer. Here’s what I mean…tell them the job is over. You’re sorry for the inconvenience. You’re not sorry for fixing it. You’ll figure it out before the next time. AND…thank them for the work. You’ll send an Invoice. And…any kind words they can spread around about your company would be greatly appreciated. And…if they ever have any problems…you’ll help…and you can be trusted. (Phil…don’t involve them any more. Let them go back to their life. They’ll appreciate that.)
Bottom line…if you want…
PM me the pics.
I’m not sure I can advise beyond what I have.
SealMaster might be able to help now.
Why 10″ long?
Did you spray the entire job…even though the trouble was just the lines?
Tell the customer. “See ya next time!…no extra charge…!”
Man alive Phil…I hope that helped…some…
DanApril 2, 2010 at 1:26 am #6012AnonymousInactive
By 10 inches I meant that I could pull up it on 10″ stripsApril 2, 2010 at 1:27 am #6013AnonymousInactive
Another picture of the existing linesApril 2, 2010 at 1:28 am #6014AnonymousInactive
Final picture. We actually scraped up the lines and resealed job 2 today. Luckily it was only 300 gallons of sealer. Still haven’t heard anything from our third customer where we noticed the lines coming up as well. We did check on another job the same day and everything is ok which makes me think it isn’t a sealer problem.
The picture showing the back of the paint chip is completely black with sealer but was too big to include in the post. As you can see from the lines picture, there is no sealer on the line, just old paint.April 2, 2010 at 3:03 am #6015
Here’s where I’m at…weird things happen.
But the good thing is this…it’s over.
(I know you may not think so…because you probably have another job lined up.)
But…until I know what type of paint was used…I disagree with whomever told you…”It was because the last striper put down oil based paint.” If that were the cause…Seal would be coming up all over the state…anywhere oil based paint is sold and used…for the last few…decades…?
(That’s how long my company…and many others…have been using oil based paint.)
Beyond that…I don’t know.
The best you can do…if you want…is this…find out what paint was used…do a test shot on the next job…
Again…I hope this helps…even if it’s only a little bit.
DanApril 2, 2010 at 3:13 am #6016AnonymousInactive
The paint we use is called ProStripe Plus – Waterborne sold by Professional Pavement Products (pppcatalog.com).April 6, 2010 at 12:50 am #6018
It sounds like you’re doing everything right.
I know…(3) times in a month does not constitute a fluke.
Sounds more like a developing pattern.
I couldn’t blame you if you became “gun shy”.
I would at least start looking at the next set of lines.
But…I must insist…it’s not old oil based paint.
That said…I don’t know. Let me know if anything new crops up.
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